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CGB

[CGB graciously agreed to let me post this excerpt from her comments, tendered via email]


Really enjoyed the paper! Of most interest was the lit review which was all new to me and incredibly informative — must add some of those to my reading list. Certainly I think your focus on the problematics of the existing theory and the inevitable oppositional discourses that arise is very pertinent and I think you're on to something there...


I also liked the way you used your own experiences and impressions in the story. I am strongly FOR putting the author into the critique as a site of meaning. I think it's important to establish ourselves as part of the discourse and not as outside evaluators — which you were very intent on doing, stating yourself as fan and critic.


I don't know whether you meant to suggest that the fan is also a critic as the corollary of your argument but I certainly think that's relevant too. As fans, I think we are highly sophisticated in our "readings" — acutely aware of the structure and form of the television show and its effect on us. And our interactions with other fans involve critiques and readings and theories of the text. The fanfic writer is a critic who expresses her interpretation in narrative form — constantly interpreting and reinterpreting the text using the codes of language and culture. The difference between most fans and Jenkins, Penley etc. and yourself is the form of the critique.


A friend of mine is doing her PhD in fictocriticism and she was very interested in fanfiction because it sounded like fictocriticism to her — it's basically critique expressed in narrative or poetics. I was very resistant to the idea when she told me about it because I did not want someone to hold up a story of mine as my interpretation of the text (i.e. someone looks at "Objects in the Mirror" and says, "cgb obviously sees Olivia as comfortable with her sexuality while Alex is not," or something). But I'm warming to the idea of fictocriticism — as long as we acknowledge that multiple interpretations exist and a story is just one interpretation.


On LJ [livejournal.com] recently there was a "meme" of sorts going around asking people to define their characters. It was mostly a Stargate thing so we got a lot of "my Daniel is... blah blah blah..." I commented that I would find it difficult to define my Sam because she is constantly changing in my mind — some days she is straight some days she isn't. A response to my post said, "well rather than dealing with the big issues first why don't you start with her background — what she was like in school etc?" and I said, "well — even her background is not conclusive to me."


I believe that most of us interpret and reinterpret our characters and only ascribe "fixed" meanings because the norms of critique do not allow us to have "floating" definitions — i.e. Olivia can't be gay and straight at the same time.


Which brings me back to your paper:

I can claim that Olivia's lesbianism is "in" Law & Order: SVU (as I will do shortly) only to the degree that I (and you, my readers) are willing to abandon absolute oppositions in favor of a model where the inside and the outside interpenetrate, where the borders of the television text are permeable, compromised by intertextual relations and infiltrated by audience readings, and where the presence of lesbian desire does not preclude other identifications and erotics

Exactly. But I think that the structures of meaning and interpretation must also be penetrable so that meanings are not fixed (and where Olivia is both gay and straight in the one interpretation at the same time).


Interpretation is utilitarian of sorts — when I choose to interpret Olivia as lesbian I do so for the purposes of writing her as a lesbian. At this time I interpret the text and the visual, audio and narrative cues as portraying a lesbian detective.


But if you were to ask me if I think she could be a lesbian, I would say she could be but she could also be straight — unless it is useful for my purposes she is both at once and neither — hence the context of interpretation is as significant as the "codes" in the text. [...]


If the text... is a set of codes then it is open to us to exercise different meanings that can be arranged from these codes — either via critical interpretation, via discussion amongst our peers and/ or via fanfic.


For this reason I was kind of disappointed you chose not argue for a lesbian Olivia (although I did understand your reasons for doing so). I think it would have been the next step after you broke down the norms of either/ or to exercise your own meaning and to argue for its validity.

[ bibliography ("next" link below is BROKEN) ]

responding

I certainly did mean to suggest that the fan is also a critic (I got that idea, in large part, from the Hastie article). But I think you do a good job here of outlining the ways this mapping of one onto the other is problematic and convoluted -- largely because of loaded expectations about what critique is. To summarize you: critique, by definition, is supposed to be fixed, much as sexuality is supposed to be fixed. When in reality both are more fluid, multiple, and fragmentary than we (have the language to) give them credit for.

Aren't you contradicting yourself by saying you wished I'd argued for a lesbian Olivia, after emphasizing the importance of cultivating a discursive space where she can be "both at once and neither"? I argued that Olivia *is* a lesbian as much as I felt I could justify theoretically, politically, morally. If there's a coherent way to make this case more strongly, it's beyond me. Ultimately, I wanted to avoid belittling or closing down other possible interpretations, for precisely the reasons you state.

I think, also, that the majority of the work on slash takes just this tack: "If the text... is a set of codes then it is open to us to exercise different meanings that can be arranged from these codes." But I really do believe the relationship is more turbulent than this optimistic model suggests. Certainly interpretation is as important and authoritative as textuality, but I think that texts facilitate certain readings and resist others in particular ways that are under-theorized. It's those avenues of inquiry that I was trying to open up in the paper.

CGB again

The text is a set of codes that can be arranged and rearranged to form different meanings - I find that the problem is not so much the meanings that need to be argued for, but the validity of meanings.

Hence my problem with the notion of "subtext" - EVERYTHING is subtext. Let's take Elliot as an example: is he sleeping with his wife? He's married, he has children but we never get to see him have sex with his wife? Even Elliot's heterosexuality is subtext. Even it we were to see him naked in his bed with his wife it is only a meta-textual reading that allows us to interpret what he's doing as representative of the sexual act. When it comes down to it, there is very little that *is* text.

I think there's a fluidity to interpretation or meaning that is sometimes unnoticeable. It's like the way the mind fills in the the gaps between the film frames so that we see a fluidity of movement when there is really only 25 static frames. The idea of movement is not in the film itself.

The text, the television show - are "ideas." I like "codes" or "signs" but that's kind of semiotic. What I am trying to say is that the process of filling in the spaces between the frames is a mental *trick* if you will - part of the process of meaning making.

There is of course, a commonality to interpretations and there are some signs that are more polysemic than others. Take the example of the traffic lights: on the road the traffic lights are not open to many interpretations, but we don't get to see how commonly accepted the mono-semic nature of traffic lights are until we get an outsider perspective. In the movie "Starman" the alien interprets traffic lights as "red - stop, green - go, orange - go faster."

It's always the "other" who interprets differently - the counter to that is an institutionalised recognition of the validity of certain meanings and the validity of static meanings.

I believe the reason we can't argue for a lesbian Olivia is because such an interpretation is not validated according to the norms and acceptabilities of textual meaning making. We see this interpretation as being subtext or as being contrived from a "deeper" examination of the text. In this analysis it is the text that is at fault for not providing us with the necessary information to produce our desired interpretation at a "primary" text level.

I would argue it is the norms and conventions of meaning making that force us into a valorised or accepted meanings primarily. When we rally against norms and conventions (or when we familiarise ourselves with other norms and conventions such as in fanfiction) we understand the text from the point of view of the other. It is a notions of validity that label these meanings as "lesser" or subtextual.

In shifting the site of analysis to the process of meaning making, I would like to shift the the point of interpretation to the point of "speaking" (by that I mean all forms of "speaking," be it critical analysis, fanfic or in conversation etc). This is a somewhat utilitarian view of meaning making - meaning exists only to communicate it to others. As I write I'm thinking that's not a very good model as it ignores the subjectification of the individual but even that process is only open to analysis when it is communicated. Hmmmm... Thoughts?

Anyway, I think the point is we should be able to argue for a lesbian Olivia primarily because the meaning "can" be made and "is" made - and that we can make it ourselves if we choose to.

When I answer whether I see Olivia as lesbian it is a purely contextual response that takes into account that which I understand of the enquiry. However, what if you were to say, "did 'Loss' make you think Olivia and Alex were in a relationship"? To that I would respond, "hell, yeah." Change the question, change my response, change the context and change the date even - but at any given point she *can* be a lesbian.

me again

I especially agree that it's often the cultural context of power relations and not the text itself that makes some interpretations seem more "subtextual" than others (I referenced this point in the paper, didn't I? It's made by Doty and others too.) But I think we still differ in that I really do want to give more priority to what's on the TV screen than you do. In part because said power relations influence that (the "text") as well as our interpretations of it -- hence the politics of visibility. I don't agree that Olivia's lesbianism or even bisexuality is (sub)textual to the same degree as Elliot's heterosexuality -- Elliot's heterosexuality may still necessarily be only implied, but it's implied much more openly because the show is a product that's produced and marketed within a heteronormative culture. Maybe there would have been a way to frame my paper that got more at such (Foucauldian?) political underpinnings of the slash phenomenon, rather than just coyly placing Olivia's lesbianism within the show (part of my point was that it's not clear that implications/interpretations that are more obvious/mainstream are not necessarily better either in terms of politics or enjoyment). But what I was trying to do was explore the interface between text and interpretation -- given that neither can be seen as a bounded entity independent of the other. You say "I think the point is we should be able to argue for a lesbian Olivia primarily because the meaning 'can' be made and 'is' made" -- well, of course I agree, on principle, that this and any other meaning is valid precisely for this reason. But at the same time I want to retain an awareness of the fact that all interpretations aren't created equal -- they have different degrees of mainstream acceptance, and different size fandoms for that matter (why oh why is there no Aeryn/Zhaan for me?). And I think the question of how to theorize these distinctions does have to be asked alongside an examination of the (interactive, unbounded) text.

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